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Grumble ...

6 messages · Martin Maechler, Peter Dalgaard, (Ted Harding) +1 more

Original
(Ted Harding)
# 
Hi Folks,

A Grumble ...

The message I just sent to R-help about "The hidden costs of GPL ..."
has evoked a "Challenge" response:

  Hi,
  You??ve just sent a message to diagnosticando at uol.com.br
  In order to confirm the sent message, please click here

  This confirmation is necessary because diagnosticando at uol.com.br
  uses Antispam UOL, a service that avoids unwanted messages like
  advertising, pornography, viruses, and spams.

  Other messages sent to diagnosticando at uol.com.br won't need to
  be confirmed*.
  *If you receive another confirmation request, please ask
  diagnosticando at uol.com.br to include you in his/her authorized
  e-mail list.

I won't be responding to this. Let the recipient simply not receive
the mail. Of no great importance in this case, but a disadvantage
to the recipient in the long run.

I disapprove strongly of this mechanism, and want to oppose it.
There must be a few thousand subscribers to R-help. If the
"Challenge" mechanism became widespread, then I would receive
thousands of such messages. Rather than respond to all these,
I would quit the list (and of course probably many others).
The "Challenge" mechanism would destroy the mailing-list community
if it became widely adopted.

One reason I am posting this grumble to R-help is in the hope
that I get a challenge to this one too. In that case, once and
for all, I shall respond, so that the recipient will see this
message and (I hope) do something about it, to eliminate the
"Challenge" responder (I can't find the true recipient's
email address from the "Challenge").

The recipient may be able to recognise themselves from the
fact that they receive this message but not the message which
triggered the response, which began:
=======================================
On 24-Nov-04 John wrote:
I'd see this as less a cost than a benefit!
=======================================

My apologies for bothering you with this if you didn't want to
know about it.

Best wishes to all,
Ted.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861  [NB: New number!]
Date: 24-Nov-04                                       Time: 10:36:35
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------
Duncan Murdoch
# 
On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 10:36:35 -0000 (GMT), (Ted Harding)
<Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk> wrote:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Here's a strategy that I hope subverts this irritating mechanism:
Every now and then I get a challenge about a message that I didn't
send, because someone (or some virus) forged me into the "From:"
address.  Those are the only ones I confirm.

Duncan Murdoch

  
  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Martin Maechler
    

    

      
      #
    

  


  

          

      
      
      
    

        
Ted> Hi Folks, A Grumble ...

    Ted> The message I just sent to R-help about "The hidden
    Ted> costs of GPL ..."  has evoked a "Challenge" response:

    Ted>   Hi, You??ve just sent a message to
    Ted> diagnosticando at uol.com.br In order to confirm the sent
    Ted> message, please click here

    Ted>   This confirmation is necessary because
    Ted> diagnosticando at uol.com.br uses Antispam UOL, a service
    Ted> that avoids unwanted messages like advertising,
    Ted> pornography, viruses, and spams.

    Ted>   Other messages sent to diagnosticando at uol.com.br
    Ted> won't need to be confirmed*.  *If you receive another
    Ted> confirmation request, please ask
    Ted> diagnosticando at uol.com.br to include you in his/her
    Ted> authorized e-mail list.

    Ted> I won't be responding to this. Let the recipient simply
    Ted> not receive the mail. Of no great importance in this
    Ted> case, but a disadvantage to the recipient in the long
    Ted> run.

    Ted> I disapprove strongly of this mechanism, and want to
    Ted> oppose it.  There must be a few thousand subscribers to
    Ted> R-help. If the "Challenge" mechanism became widespread,
    Ted> then I would receive thousands of such messages. Rather
    Ted> than respond to all these, I would quit the list (and
    Ted> of course probably many others).  The "Challenge"
    Ted> mechanism would destroy the mailing-list community if
    Ted> it became widely adopted.

Exactly.
I've received such a message myself from the same "machine" and
-- as mailing list manager -- tried to find out more.

The problem is that diagnosticando at uol.com.br is not subscribed
to R-help. One other person is and I have written e-mail to that
address withOUT getting such a message back..

Again, I completely agree that it is absolutely inacceptable 
to subscribe from such a spam-blocking address.


    Ted> One reason I am posting this grumble to R-help is in
    Ted> the hope that I get a challenge to this one too. In
    Ted> that case, once and for all, I shall respond, so that
    Ted> the recipient will see this message and (I hope) do
    Ted> something about it, to eliminate the "Challenge"
    Ted> responder (I can't find the true recipient's email
    Ted> address from the "Challenge").

please let me (or R-help too) know what you find out.

Martin Maechler, ETH Zurich
(R-help mailing list maintainer)

    Ted> The recipient may be able to recognise themselves from
    Ted> the fact that they receive this message but not the
    Ted> message which triggered the response, which began:
    Ted> ======================================= On 24-Nov-04

        
Ted> John wrote:

        
>> Off hand, the costs of GPL'd software are not hidden at
    >> all.  R for instance demands that a would be user sit
    >> down and learn the language. This in turn pushes a user
    >> into learning more about statistics than the simple
    >> overview that Stat 1 presents a student.

    Ted> I'd see this as less a cost than a benefit!
    Ted> =======================================

    Ted> My apologies for bothering you with this if you didn't
    Ted> want to know about it.

    Ted> Best wishes to all, Ted.

  
  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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Duncan Murdoch <murdoch at stats.uwo.ca> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Hehe... But don't you risk getting listed as an "active spammer" or
something that way? Personally I just send them to the bogus folder
for later update to the spamfilter.

Imagine if everyone had this challenge stuff installed and we had to
confirm every message ~1e3 times (how many subscribers are we these
days). The vacation messages are annoying enough. 

I wonder how this guy got on the list in the first place. I suspect
that he couldn't actually have completed the subscription process
unless the mechanism was installed after the subscription.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      (Ted Harding)
    

    

      
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On 24-Nov-04 Martin Maechler wrote:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Hi Martin,
I'm pleased to receive such positive support! (I was apprehensive
about annoying the list with this issue).

I did get a "Challenge" to the Grumble, so I confirmed that one.
I have heard nothing yet from anyone who might be connected to
uol.com.br but of course may do so later.

I visited the uol.com.br website and found the following on it:

  http://antispam.uol.com.br/autorizados.jhtm#discussao

  4. Como autorizar listas de discuss??o?
  As mensagens de algumas listas/grupos de discuss??o
  chegam com o campo "Para:" preenchido com um e-mail
  que n??o ?? o seu (e sim o e-mail geral da lista).
  Para receber estas mensagens em sua pasta de entrada,
  acesse o Web Mail e clique no op????o Grupos/Listas do
  AntiSpam UOL. Em seguida, autorize o e-mail das listas
  que voc?? participa.

which, as well as I can understand it, suggests that someone
subscribed to a mailing list can set that mailing-list as an
acceptable sender. What's not clear to me is whether, having
done that, it over-rides challenging the originator (e.g. me)
of the message.

Thanks, and best wishes,
Ted.


--------------------------------------------------------------------
E-Mail: (Ted Harding) <Ted.Harding at nessie.mcc.ac.uk>
Fax-to-email: +44 (0)870 094 0861  [NB: New number!]
Date: 24-Nov-04                                       Time: 13:28:49
------------------------------ XFMail ------------------------------

  
  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Duncan Murdoch
    

    

      
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On 24 Nov 2004 13:59:41 +0100, Peter Dalgaard
<p.dalgaard at biostat.ku.dk> wrote :

            

      
      
      
    

        
That could happen, but that's really a benefit:  it means the user of
the challenge response system will find his filters don't work
properly, another reason to drop it.

            

      
      
      
    

        
I do that too, which may be why I only see these "now and then".

Duncan Murdoch