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R under Pocket PC

18 messages · Lars Strand, Tim Cutts, Brian Ripley +7 more

Original
Brian Ripley
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Lars Strand wrote:

            

      
      
      
    

        
We don't know!

There are no binary versions of R for that platform, but perhaps you could 
find a suitable compiler and manage to build the sources.

Outside pure mathematics it is usually very hard to establish that
something cannot be done (and it can be very hard in pure mathematics, 
too).

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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Prof Brian Ripley <ripley at stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
The PDA idea is quite interesting on all sorts of hardware.
Unfortunately, the tools for (cross-)building software tend to be
rather "hackish" and poorly documented. I believe people have had some
success with the Sharp Zaurus, but that of course runs a Linux
variant. Looks like at least some toolchains are around for WinCE, but
the bad news is that WinCE is a stripped-down Windows, so you are
likely to find that the Windows sources do not just work. A console
version could be fairly simple, but I wouldn't know for sure.

Googling for "pocketgcc"  chased up  some interesting stuff.
"wince+tcltk" suggested that there is a functional tcltk, which means
that you might use that for an initial GUI and - who knows - maybe
tkrplot for the graphics.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Tim Cutts
    

    

      
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On 9 Nov 2004, at 12:27 pm, Prof Brian Ripley wrote:

        

            

      
      
      
    

        
Do PocketPCs generally have enough memory to run something as big as R? 
  A standard R install requires a lot of storage space, by PDA 
standards...

Technically, I don't suppose there's much to stop R running on some 
PDAs, especially those based on Linux like the Sharp Zaurus, other than 
storage and memory requirements.  If there's a Qt graphical interface 
available for R, you could even get graphics working on the Zaurus, 
potentially.  The Windows API on Pocket PC is quite a reduced subset 
compared to full Windows, so you might have problems with that.  PalmOS 
would probably be right out.  :-)

Tim

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      David Whiting
    

    

      
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Peter Dalgaard <p.dalgaard at biostat.ku.dk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
[...]

If the OP has a Compaq Ipaq and does not mind using Linux it seems to
be possible to runs linux on the Ipaq and therefore it might
conceivably be able to run R.

http://www.ipaqlinux.com/

It is interesting this has come up at this time. Two days ago I
installed Linux on a Psion 5MX (16Mb RAM) and am tickled pink by
it. Installation is easy. At the moment I only have a small
compactflash disk so I have not been able to install X windows or R
yet. It runs debian woody. Linux is installed on the CF so it is
actually a dual-boot machine---I have both the wonderful Psion
software [why did they stop making them?] and can boot into Linux when
I need it. When in Linux switching it on and off is instantaneous,
just like any ordinary PDA.

My ultimate aim is to have R, emacs, ESS and latex on it.  Today I
ordered a 1Gb CF disk and expect to get it in a week or two and I will
let you know how I get on.

Here's the howto: 
http://linux-7110.sourceforge.net/howtos/series5mx/5MXHOWTO.htm

Some screenshots: (there's one with emacs about half way down the page
and octave and gnuplot at the bottom). 
http://www.openpsion.org/howtos/series5mx/5MXHOWTO/5MX_howto_11.htm

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Brian Ripley
    

    

      
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On Tue, 9 Nov 2004, Tim Cutts wrote:

        

            

      
      
      
    

        
Yes -- have you not seen the size of SD cards these days?  An R for 
Windows install is under 50Mb and needs about 12Mb RAM to run.

            

      
      
      
    

        
That was not the question.

            

      
      
      
    

        
But that was.  However, as I said, you would have to find a suitable 
compiler or cross-compiler, that supports enough features (and I suspect 
IEEE arithmetic would be a problem, especially as it is for VC++ on full 
Windows).

Perhaps you would like to write such a compiler, as technically there's 
not much to stop you?

            

      
      
      
    

        
I think you are belittling the work done to get R running on as wide a 
range of platforms as it does.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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Tim Cutts <tjrc at sanger.ac.uk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
You can actually run X on the Zaurus, in which case you have a nearly
complete no-brainer. You do need an expansion card though.

Qt for R is not in the cards currently, as far as I know. The
cross-platform/licensing issues makes it a bit unappealing. R isn't
all that big, unless you use it for big things: about 60MB on the
disk, and 20MB initial RAM usage, on a PC.

            

      
      
      
    

        
Wouldn't rule those out even, we do have at least some bitmap drivers.

In all cases, I suspect that the small screens would require some
usability rethinking. You need to have the item in hand to really know
what to do, I suppose.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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Prof Brian Ripley <ripley at stats.ox.ac.uk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
The compiler would seem to be there, basically, in the form of gcc
ports. Dealing with the platform libraries is the hard thing in my
view.

            

      
      
      
    

        
? 

I only saw a bit of excessive pessimism in that remark.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Gabor Grothendieck
    

    

      
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David Whiting <david.whiting <at> ncl.ac.uk> writes:


: It is interesting this has come up at this time. Two days ago I
: installed Linux on a Psion 5MX (16Mb RAM) and am tickled pink by
: it. Installation is easy. At the moment I only have a small
: compactflash disk so I have not been able to install X windows or R
: yet. 

You could see if MacAnova will install -- its an R/S-like package.  
Its pretty small (even runs on 640K DOS) and is quite portable.  Its
not as powerful as R but its still amazingly powerful and you might
be able to fit it on.

  
  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      David Whiting
    

    

      
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Gabor Grothendieck <ggrothendieck at myway.com> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Thanks. I took a quick look and I think I would have to cross-compile
it (I didn't find an ARM binary).  When I get my larger compactflash
card I am hoping that I will be able to just get the ARM debian
package (and all the assorted dependencies) without having to setup a
cross-compiling tool chain---I will have to take a look and see what
is involved in doing this. I don't have a compiler installed on the
Psion and probably would not have enough room for all the libraries
(just guessing here).

Dave

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      A.J. Rossini
    

    

      
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One concern I recall from looking into this a while back (hopefully
not founded) was the issue with floating point handling on the ARMs
and similar PDA CPUs.

This was relevant to the familiar/intimate linux distro's around 18-24
months ago, when I was considering an IPAQ or Zaurus to replace my old
but not dead yet palm.

        
On 09 Nov 2004 19:06:39 +0000, David Whiting <david.whiting at ncl.ac.uk> wrote:

            

      
      
      
    

        

      
      
    

        

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      root
    

    

      
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Thanks to the excellent work of the R developers in keeping all the code
quite standard, and some specific work by Simon Pickering (Bath University),
I have had R working (with graphics) on my Sharp Zaurus for some time.
Sadly, checking today his site is down, but binaries for the Zaurus are
available.

There was a problem with NA handling that needed specifically addressing,
and some missing fonts, but the fpu emulation worked fine. This was using
X11, keypebble and VNC. It could _just about_ run in the standard RAM -
although was a lot happier with extra memory. Most impressive, and well done
Simon (and the R team).

However, a note of caution - presumably due to the lack of a hardware fpu,
and perhaps also the relatively slow access speed of SD ram, benchmarks on
the zaurus ran anything up to (wait for it!) 100 times slower than a pentium
of the same clock speed. This has sadly left R on my Zaurus largely idle, as
in practice I found it just too slow to be usable.

I fear this problem could afflict any handheld implementation, until they
start putting fpu's on these chips.

Stuart

(PS. I have the same problem with a mini-ITX 'silent PC' - many of these
low-power cpus (eg. Eden) lack hardware FPU. They run many office apps fine,
but when I benchmarked with a stats program, I found it 50 times slower than
a pentium of equivalent clock speed! I am advised that even those that do
have hardware FPU eg. the Nehemiah chip are only 50-60% as fast as a
pentium-class cpu of similar clock speed)

Dr Stuart Leask DM MRCPsych, Senior Lecturer
University Dept of Psychiatry, Duncan Macmillan House
Porchester Road, Nottingham. NG3 6AA. UK
tel. 0115 924 9924 xtn 40784
http://www.nottingham.ac.uk/psychiatry/staff/s_leask.html


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      David Whiting
    

    

      
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"A.J. Rossini" <blindglobe at gmail.com> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Ah, yes, I remember this now. I've just searched the R archives and
must admit the prospects do not look good.  I don't know much about
floating point handling, the FPU, etc., but a quick search of the
Linux/Psion 5MX archive led me to this:

"So, if you decide to switch to using soft-float for some application,
you MUST recompile ALL the libraries that application is going to use,
including system libraries like the C library.  If those libraries are
dynamically linked libraries, you then must also recompile all the
applications that share those same libraries. And then your
application will run correctly only on systems with soft-float
environments, unless you link it statically in which case it will run
anywhere (even on a kernel with NWFPE configured in -- it will simply
not be invoked). That"s the main reason why mainstream ARM
distributions are still reluctant to switch to soft-float because of
the associated compatibility pain."

If I understand this correctly it looks like it might be possible if I
recompile everything, something that I was hoping I would be able to
avoid. On the other hand, it could be a great learning experience.

Even if R does not work 100% I'm still going to be happy having my
other applications and files with me.  I'll report back on how I get
on.

Dave.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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"Stuart Leask" <stuart.leask at nottingham.ac.uk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Right. As I recall it, the FPU/NA issue was a case of configure
getting the byte-order wrong and not (as was believed for a while) a
problem with non-IEEE arithmetic.

            

      
      
      
    

        
Hmm. So you're probably limited to problems that require on the order
of tens of milliseconds FPU time on a normal machine. I suppose that
there are usages where this is feasible.

            

      
      
      
    

        
Yes. Now where are the video gamers when you need them?

            

      
      
      
    

        
Hmm, the newer ones (Eden-N, Eden-ESP) claim "full-speed FPU". I've
been toying around with the idea of building a system around the
MythTV stuff to get a harddisk video recording, etc. Could be kind of
fun to run R on it with display to the TV (but could you control R
with the TV remote control?)

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Barry Rowlingson
    

    

      
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Peter,

    I'm sure everyone on this list feels you work hard enough on R as it 
is, dont let it invade your living room as well!

Baz

  
  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Tim Cutts
    

    

      
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On 9 Nov 2004, at 5:14 pm, Peter Dalgaard wrote:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Yes, no disrespect was intended at all.  Porting to PalmOS is quite a 
different kettle of fish compared to porting between (say) Windows and 
UNIX, because the OS doesn't have a libc; if you use almost any 
standard C library function your binary becomes a huge (because it 
needs to be statically linked with the C library that comes with your 
cross compiler).  A true PalmOS port of any piece of software often 
requires a lot of work to replace standard C library calls with the 
equivalents built into the machine.  Someone may have created some sort 
of wrapper C library, but when I last wrote any software for Palm 
devices, such a thing did not exist.

Admittedly, that was about two years ago, when I wrote some stuff for 
PalmOS 4.

Tim

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Peter Dalgaard
    

    

      
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Barry Rowlingson <B.Rowlingson at lancaster.ac.uk> writes:

            

      
      
      
    

        
Too late. Laptop + WiFi + ADSL did that a while back.

  
    

      
      
    

  


  


      

    

    

      
      

        


  

        

      Tom Mulholland
    

    

      
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What is really scary, is the thought that in some housholds this would 
be an improvement. Instead of the family being closeted away in their 
various rooms playing with their computer, they could all be sitting 
together, while at the same time ignoring each other, but occassionally 
engaging in royal (as in "The Royals") interaction and the odd cuppa.

For those not familiar with the TV series "The Royals" its a chunk of 
domesticity that has to be seen to be appreciated ( or disgusted 
depending upon your view of life.)

Tom Mulholland

        
Barry Rowlingson wrote: