[R-gui] Re: R-SIG-GUI Digest, Vol 20, Issue 7
Philippe, I think your impressions are quite accurate: experts on statistics are more interested on programming statistical problems than user interfaces, and non experts would like to have GUI's but they do not have the skills. You may think that this problem could be solved technically. If tools for programming graphical interfaces were available, experts might use them to produce good GUI's. However, technique only is probably not enough. It is necessary a culture that promotes this behaviour. We might learn from past similar experiences. An statistical environment that enjoyed certain success before R came was Lisp-Stat. Lisp-Stat had superb user interface capabilities at the time if came up. Capabilities that, nowadays, are probably not very impressive but that, if available in R, would be sufficient for many purposes. However, experience showed that the people programming in Lisp-Stat very often did not put as much effort on the graphical interface as they put on the statistical programming. Lisp-Stat is now basically dead but we still can learn something from it: programmers may not program user interfaces even though they have the tools. My impression is that commercial programs will continue leading the GUI efforts in the close future. Free software written by statisticians interested on statistics will not have the bells and whistles we are used to see in commercial software in the close future. After all, software companies estimate that the programming effort of the GUI of a typical application is about the 60% or 80% of the program. Only paid people is probably to be very excited about carrying out this effort. The only solution I see for the problem is a change in attitude about the importance of the problem of user interfaces. This change of attitude should lead to increasing the reward available at academic places for working in this area. After all, at this moment, most of the people see the statistical part as the "ice cream" and the interface as the "topping" of statistical systems. In other words, not many people believe that the interfaces, GUI or not, suppose an academic challenge that deserve academic reward. As a consequence, there are not journals, books or conferences discussing methods, techniques, case stories or comparisons of features of people trying to develop good interfaces. The developments on this area do not accumulate. Hence, if the attitude about developing interfaces does not change, it is very difficult that many people will get involved on programming them, and the progress is going to be very limited. You might remember the times were programming statistical software was a second class activity and it did not deserve academical reward. Now, things have changed and programmers of statistical software enjoy great reputation for carrying out their work. So, books and papers on statistical systems are among the most cited and read by everybody. Journals like JCGS, encouraging the publication of papers with such contents have contributed to such state of things. Who knows, programming of good interfaces might reach a similar status some day.
At 12:24 17/11/2004, you wrote:
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https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-gui or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to r-sig-gui-request@stat.math.ethz.ch You can reach the person managing the list at r-sig-gui-owner@stat.math.ethz.ch When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of R-SIG-GUI digest..." Today's Topics: 1. The hidden costs of GPL software? (Philippe Grosjean) 2. Re: [R] The hidden costs of GPL software? (Jan P. Smit) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 10:53:28 +0100 From: "Philippe Grosjean" <phgrosjean@sciviews.org> Subject: [R-gui] The hidden costs of GPL software? To: <r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch>, <r-sig-gui@stat.math.ethz.ch> Message-ID: <200411170955.iAH9toV21278008@hedwig1.umh.ac.be> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hello, In the latest 'Scientific Computing World' magazine (issue 78, p. 22), there is a review on free statistical software by Felix Grant ("doesn't have to pay good money to obtain good statistics software"). As far as I know, this is the first time that R is even mentioned in this magazine, given that it usually discuss commercial products. In this article, the analysis of R is interesting. It is admitted that R is a great software with lots of potentials, but: "All in all, R was a good lesson in the price that may have to be paid for free software: I spent many hours relearning some quite basic things taken for granted in the commercial package." Those basic things are releated with data import, obtention of basic plots, etc... with a claim for a missing more intuitive GUI in order to smooth a little bit the learning curve. There are several R GUI projects ongoing, but these are progressing very slowly. The main reason is, I believe, that a relatively low number of programmers working on R are interested by this field. Most people wanting such a GUI are basic user that do not (cannot) contribute... And if they eventually become more knowledgeable, they tend to have other interests. So, is this analysis correct: are there hidden costs for free software like R in the time required to learn it? At least currently, for the people I know (biologists, ecologists, oceanographers, ...), this is perfectly true. This is even an insurmountable barrier for many of them I know, and they have given up (they come back to Statistica, Systat, or S-PLUS using exclusively functions they can reach through menus/dialog boxes). Of course, the solution is to have a decent GUI for R, but this is a lot of work, and I wonder if the intrinsic mechanism of GPL is not working against such a development (leading to a very low pool of programmers actively involved in the elaboration of such a GUI, in comparison to the very large pool of competent developers working on R itself). Do not misunderstand me: I don't give up with my GUI project, I am just wondering if there is a general, ineluctable mechanism that leads to the current R / R GUI situation as it stands,... and consequently to a "general rule" that there are indeed most of the time "hidden costs" in free software, due to the larger time required to learn it. I am sure there are counter-examples, however, my feeling is that, for Linux, Apache, etc... the GUI (if there is one) is often a way back in comparison to the potentials in the software, leading to a steep learning curve in order to use all these features. I would be interested by your impressions and ideas on this topic. Best regards, Philippe Grosjean ..............................................<?}))><........ ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Prof. Philippe Grosjean ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Numerical Ecology of Aquatic Systems ) ) ) ) ) Mons-Hainaut University, Pentagone ( ( ( ( ( Academie Universitaire Wallonie-Bruxelles ) ) ) ) ) 6, av du Champ de Mars, 7000 Mons, Belgium ( ( ( ( ( ) ) ) ) ) phone: + 32.65.37.34.97, fax: + 32.65.37.33.12 ( ( ( ( ( email: Philippe.Grosjean@umh.ac.be ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( web: http://www.umh.ac.be/~econum ) ) ) ) ) .............................................................. ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2004 17:49:24 +0700 From: "Jan P. Smit" <jps@srres.com> Subject: [R-gui] Re: [R] The hidden costs of GPL software? To: r-help@stat.math.ethz.ch, r-sig-gui@stat.math.ethz.ch Cc: Philippe Grosjean <phgrosjean@sciviews.org> Message-ID: <419B2CB4.7010708@srres.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dear Phillippe, Very interesting. The URL of the article is http://www.scientific-computing.com/scwsepoct04free_statistics.html. Best regards, Jan Smit Philippe Grosjean wrote: Hello, In the latest 'Scientific Computing World' magazine (issue 78, p. 22), there is a review on free statistical software by Felix Grant ("doesn't have to pay good money to obtain good statistics software"). As far as I know, this is the first time that R is even mentioned in this magazine, given that it usually discuss commercial products. In this article, the analysis of R is interesting. It is admitted that R is a great software with lots of potentials, but: "All in all, R was a good lesson in the price that may have to be paid for free software: I spent many hours relearning some quite basic things taken for granted in the commercial package." Those basic things are releated with data import, obtention of basic plots, etc... with a claim for a missing more intuitive GUI in order to smooth a little bit the learning curve. There are several R GUI projects ongoing, but these are progressing very slowly. The main reason is, I believe, that a relatively low number of programmers working on R are interested by this field. Most people wanting such a GUI are basic user that do not (cannot) contribute... And if they eventually become more knowledgeable, they tend to have other interests. So, is this analysis correct: are there hidden costs for free software like R in the time required to learn it? At least currently, for the people I know (biologists, ecologists, oceanographers, ...), this is perfectly true. This is even an insurmountable barrier for many of them I know, and they have given up (they come back to Statistica, Systat, or S-PLUS using exclusively functions they can reach through menus/dialog boxes). Of course, the solution is to have a decent GUI for R, but this is a lot of work, and I wonder if the intrinsic mechanism of GPL is not working against such a development (leading to a very low pool of programmers actively involved in the elaboration of such a GUI, in comparison to the very large pool of competent developers working on R itself). Do not misunderstand me: I don't give up with my GUI project, I am just wondering if there is a general, ineluctable mechanism that leads to the current R / R GUI situation as it stands,... and consequently to a "general rule" that there are indeed most of the time "hidden costs" in free software, due to the larger time required to learn it. I am sure there are counter-examples, however, my feeling is that, for Linux, Apache, etc... the GUI (if there is one) is often a way back in comparison to the potentials in the software, leading to a steep learning curve in order to use all these features. I would be interested by your impressions and ideas on this topic. Best regards, Philippe Grosjean ..............................................<?}))><........ ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Prof. Philippe Grosjean ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( Numerical Ecology of Aquatic Systems ) ) ) ) ) Mons-Hainaut University, Pentagone ( ( ( ( ( Academie Universitaire Wallonie-Bruxelles ) ) ) ) ) 6, av du Champ de Mars, 7000 Mons, Belgium ( ( ( ( ( ) ) ) ) ) phone: + 32.65.37.34.97, fax: + 32.65.37.33.12 ( ( ( ( ( email: Philippe.Grosjean@umh.ac.be ) ) ) ) ) ( ( ( ( ( web: http://www.umh.ac.be/~econum ) ) ) ) ) .............................................................. ______________________________________________ R-help@stat.math.ethz.ch mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-help PLEASE do read the posting guide! http://www.R-project.org/posting-guide.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ R-SIG-GUI mailing list R-SIG-GUI@stat.math.ethz.ch https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-gui End of R-SIG-GUI Digest, Vol 20, Issue 7 ****************************************