Dear all I come back to you about the IPD meta-analysis we are conducting to explore the effect of month of birth on the persistence of ADHD. I had already asked for your help a few months ago when I was writing the protocol. We have since completed our systematic review and started to include data from different cohorts. As the month of birth is sensitive data, we do not ask the authors to send us the raw data: we have constructed an R-script that we send to the authors and which performs the analyses automatically and shares the anonymised results. We then carry out a classic two-stage meta-analysis based on summary results. We are facing a new challenge that we did not anticipate. Several studies involve complex survey design. Some studies have clusters (e.g., twin cohorts or assessments of several regular siblings per family), while others have even more complex sampling (and include for example sampling weights, stratum or finite population correction (fpc)). Some studies include both (clusters + stratum/weights/fpc). To analyse the data with clustering, naturally we thought of using mixed models via the glmer function of lme4 (our VD is binary: ADHD persistence yes/no). However, lme4 does not allow to handle - for the moment - sampling weights or stratifications. Therefore, for all data with clustering and/or weights and/or stratum and/or fpc, our idea was to use only the svyglm function of the survey package in order to have a coherent group of analyses (we know that the glmer and svyglm functions do not use the same coefficients (marginals vs. conditionals)). Our question is the following: can we group within the same meta-analysis coefficients that come from standard logistic regressions and coefficients that come from generalised mixed models fitted using glmer or generalised linear models adapted to complex designs fitted using svyglm? To support our question, we performed some tests on a dataset including clusters and sampling weights. Here are the results : ###################################################################### *On raw dataset* (df_raw is a dataset containing clustering) *# regular logistic regressions on the raw data (we ignore clustering / we ignore sampling weights):* summary(glm(DV ~ IV, family = "binomial", data = df_raw)) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -1.07497 0.12907 -8.328 <2e-16 *** IV (month) 0.03916 0.01732 2.261 0.0238 * *# generalized mixed model via lme4 (we take into account the clustering (ID variable) / we ignore sampling weights):* summary(lme4::glmer(DV ~ IV + (1 | ID), family = "binomial", data = df_raw)) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -1.10949 0.14571 -7.614 2.65e-14 *** IV (month) 0.04034 0.01793 2.250 0.0245 * *# generalized linear model via survey package (we take into account the clustering (ID variable) / we ignore sampling weights):* dclus1<- survey::svydesign(id= ~ID, data = df_raw) summary(survey::svyglm(DV ~ IV, design = dclus1, family = quasibinomial())) Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|) (Intercept) -1.07497 0.12927 -8.316 2.31e-16 *** IV (month) 0.03916 0.01729 2.265 0.0237 * *# generalized linear model via survey package (we take into account the clustering (ID variable) / we take into account sampling weights (WEIGHT variable)):* dclus2<- survey::svydesign(id=~ID, weights = ~WEIGHT, data = df_raw) summary(survey::svyglm(DV ~ IV, design = dclus2, family = quasibinomial())) Estimate Std. Error t value Pr(>|t|) (Intercept) -0.98952 0.15475 -6.394 2.25e-10 *** IV (month) 0.02195 0.02069 1.061 0.289 ###################################################################### *On an aggregated dataset *(df_agg is the same dataset as df_raw but not containing any clustering: we have randomly selected one child per cluster). length(unique(df_agg$ID)) is equal to nrow(df_agg) *# regular logistic regressions on the aggregated data (we ignore sampling weights):* summary(glm(DV ~ IV, family = "binomial", data = df_agg)) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -1.07309 0.13328 -8.051 8.2e-16 *** IV (month) 0.04327 0.01782 2.428 0.0152 * *# generalized mixed model via lme4 (we ignore sampling weights):* summary(lme4::glmer(DV ~ IV + (1 | ID), family = "binomial", data = df_agg)) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -1.07309 0.13328 -8.051 8.2e-16 *** IV (month) 0.04327 0.01782 2.428 0.0152 * *# generalized linear model adapted to complex design via survey (we ignore sampling weights):* dclus4<- survey::svydesign(id= ~ID, data = df_agg) summary(survey::svyglm(DV ~ IV, design = dclus4, family = quasibinomial())) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -1.07309 0.13351 -8.037 2.12e-15 *** IV (month) 0.04327 0.01785 2.424 0.0155 * *# generalized linear model adapted to complex design via survey (we take into account sampling weights):* dclus5<- survey::svydesign(id= ~ID, weights = WEIGHT, data = df_agg) summary(survey::svyglm(DV ~ IV, design = dclus5, family = quasibinomial())) Estimate Std. Error z value Pr(>|z|) (Intercept) -0.95961 0.15957 -6.014 2.38e-09 *** IV (month) 0.02471 0.02133 1.159 0.247 As you can see, the results are almost the same from the models, except when we take into account sampling weights. I hope that our problem is clearly exposed Thank you very much in advance for your help! Corentin J Gosling
[R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design
5 messages · GOSLING Corentin, Wolfgang Viechtbauer
Dear Corentin, I cannot answer your question directly, that is, to what extent those results are comparable to each other, although if svyglm() gives 'marginal' (population averaged) coefficients in the sense of what a GEE model would do, then one could argue that those should not be combined with 'conditional' coefficients that glmer() provides (searching for combinations of terms like "GEE, marginal, population averaged, logistic mixed-effects, conditional, subject-specific" should turn up relevant discussions / papers). But leaving this aside, one could also just approach this issue entirely empirically, that is, simply code the type of analysis / type of coefficient for each study and examine in a moderator analysis whether there are systematic differences between the different types. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: R-sig-meta-analysis [mailto:r-sig-meta-analysis-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of GOSLING Corentin Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2021 11:29 To: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear all I come back to you about the IPD meta-analysis we are conducting to explore the effect of month of birth on the persistence of ADHD. I had already asked for your help a few months ago when I was writing the protocol. We have since completed our systematic review and started to include data from different cohorts. As the month of birth is sensitive data, we do not ask the authors to send us the raw data: we have constructed an R-script that we send to the authors and which performs the analyses automatically and shares the anonymised results. We then carry out a classic two-stage meta-analysis based on summary results. We are facing a new challenge that we did not anticipate. Several studies involve complex survey design. Some studies have clusters (e.g., twin cohorts or assessments of several regular siblings per family), while others have even more complex sampling (and include for example sampling weights, stratum or finite population correction (fpc)). Some studies include both (clusters + stratum/weights/fpc). To analyse the data with clustering, naturally we thought of using mixed models via the glmer function of lme4 (our VD is binary: ADHD persistence yes/no). However, lme4 does not allow to handle - for the moment - sampling weights or stratifications. Therefore, for all data with clustering and/or weights and/or stratum and/or fpc, our idea was to use only the svyglm function of the survey package in order to have a coherent group of analyses (we know that the glmer and svyglm functions do not use the same coefficients (marginals vs. conditionals)). Our question is the following: can we group within the same meta-analysis coefficients that come from standard logistic regressions and coefficients that come from generalised mixed models fitted using glmer or generalised linear models adapted to complex designs fitted using svyglm? To support our question, we performed some tests on a dataset including clusters and sampling weights. Here are the results : [...] As you can see, the results are almost the same from the models, except when we take into account sampling weights. I hope that our problem is clearly exposed Thank you very much in advance for your help! Corentin J Gosling
Dear Prof Viechtbauer, Thank you very much for your reply! Sorry, my question was a bit misleading. In line with your suggestion, our aim is to avoid merging ?marginal ?coefficients and ?conditional? coefficients by using only the svyglm function as soon as the data has a complex structure (clustering and/or weighting, etc...). You are entirely right, in situations with clustering only, we could compare 3 approaches : (i) select only 1 individual per cluster and use glm function, or keep clustering and use (ii) glmer function or (iii) svyglm function. However, we are a bit reluctant to make these comparisons for two reasons. First, as soon as data have a more complex structure (e.g. sampling weights), the only approach allowing to take this into account is the svyglm function. This makes comparisons a bit strange, as in our examples, since one analysis is taking account of some specificity of the design while the others are not. Second, from a practical point of view, the burden on authors will become even more complicated as the time required for analysis is already sometimes quite long (in particular because of several multiple imputation models). We are concerned that the multiplication of tests may sometimes make the analysis time so long that it may discourage some authors from participating. Our question was whether - within the same meta-analysis - we could "safely *" *include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression (when data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the svyglm function (when the data have a complex structure). By safely, I mean without having to compare the results of the svyglm function to other functions (such as glm or glmer) when data have a complex structure. If this is not possible, a more anecdotal question was whether it is possible to "safely" include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression (when data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the glmer function (when data have clustering). Thank you so much for your help! Best wishes Corentin Gosling Le ven. 5 mars 2021 ? 09:32, Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) < wolfgang.viechtbauer at maastrichtuniversity.nl> a ?crit :
Dear Corentin, I cannot answer your question directly, that is, to what extent those results are comparable to each other, although if svyglm() gives 'marginal' (population averaged) coefficients in the sense of what a GEE model would do, then one could argue that those should not be combined with 'conditional' coefficients that glmer() provides (searching for combinations of terms like "GEE, marginal, population averaged, logistic mixed-effects, conditional, subject-specific" should turn up relevant discussions / papers). But leaving this aside, one could also just approach this issue entirely empirically, that is, simply code the type of analysis / type of coefficient for each study and examine in a moderator analysis whether there are systematic differences between the different types. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: R-sig-meta-analysis [mailto:
r-sig-meta-analysis-bounces at r-project.org] On
Behalf Of GOSLING Corentin Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2021 11:29 To: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear all I come back to you about the IPD meta-analysis we are conducting to
explore
the effect of month of birth on the persistence of ADHD. I had already asked for your help a few months ago when I was writing the protocol. We have since completed our systematic review and started to include data
from
different cohorts. As the month of birth is sensitive data, we do not ask the authors to send us the raw data: we have constructed an R-script that we send to the authors and which performs the analyses automatically and shares the anonymised results. We then carry out a classic two-stage meta-analysis based on summary results. We are facing a new challenge that we did not anticipate. Several studies involve complex survey design. Some studies have clusters (e.g., twin cohorts or assessments of several regular siblings per family), while others have even more complex sampling (and include for example sampling weights, stratum or finite population correction (fpc)). Some studies include both (clusters + stratum/weights/fpc). To analyse the data with clustering, naturally we thought of using mixed models via the glmer function of lme4 (our VD is binary: ADHD persistence yes/no). However, lme4 does not allow to handle - for the moment -
sampling
weights or stratifications. Therefore, for all data with clustering and/or weights and/or stratum and/or fpc, our idea was to use only the svyglm function of the survey package in order to have a coherent group of analyses (we know that the glmer and svyglm functions do not use the same coefficients (marginals vs. conditionals)). Our question is the following: can we group within the same meta-analysis coefficients that come from standard logistic regressions and coefficients that come from generalised mixed models fitted using glmer or generalised linear models adapted to complex designs fitted using svyglm? To support our question, we performed some tests on a dataset including clusters and sampling weights. Here are the results : [...] As you can see, the results are almost the same from the models, except when we take into account sampling weights. I hope that our problem is clearly exposed Thank you very much in advance for your help! Corentin J Gosling
Hi Corentin, I did not mean to suggest that one should run several different analyses on a single dataset. That would indeed place too much of a burden on the authors of the individual studies. My suggestion is really about this part:
Our question was whether - within the same meta-analysis - we could "safely" include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression (when data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the svyglm function (when the data have a complex structure).
I cannot tell you if is safe or not. But what you can always do is combine these different types in a single analysis and then check if there are systematic differences between these two types of effect sizes. If there are no systematic differences, then this is (empirical) evidence that combining them is in some sense an acceptable thing to do. This approach is similar to checking if effect sizes extracted from published articles are systematically different from those extracted from unpublished sources in a meta-analysis. If there are systematic differences, we need to think about what the reason for the difference may be. If not, then this is one less thing to worry about. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: GOSLING Corentin [mailto:corentin.gosling at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 05 March, 2021 10:33 To: Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) Cc: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: Re: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear Prof Viechtbauer, Thank you very much for your reply! Sorry, my question was a bit misleading. In line with your suggestion, our aim is to avoid merging ?marginal ?coefficients and ?conditional? coefficients by using only the svyglm function as soon as the data has a complex structure (clustering and/or weighting, etc...). You are entirely right, in situations with clustering only, we could compare 3 approaches : (i) select only 1 individual per cluster and use glm function, or keep clustering and use (ii) glmer function or (iii) svyglm function. However, we?are a bit reluctant to make these comparisons for two reasons. First,?as soon as data have a more complex structure (e.g. sampling weights), the only approach allowing to take this into account is the svyglm function. This makes comparisons a bit strange, as in our examples, since one analysis is taking account of some specificity?of the design while the others are not. Second,?from a practical point of view,?the burden on authors will become even more complicated as the time required for analysis is already sometimes quite long (in particular because of several multiple imputation models). We are concerned that the multiplication of tests may sometimes make the analysis time so long that it may discourage some authors from participating. Our question was whether - within the same meta-analysis - we could "safely"?include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression (when data have a regular structure) +? effect sizes?estimated by the svyglm function (when the data have a complex structure). By safely, I mean?without having to compare the results of the svyglm function to other functions (such as glm or glmer) when data have a complex structure. If this is not possible, a more anecdotal?question was whether it is possible to "safely" include? effect sizes?estimated by a? standard?logistic regression?(when data have a regular structure)?+ effect sizes?estimated by the glmer function (when data have clustering). Thank you so much?for your help! Best wishes Corentin Gosling Le?ven. 5 mars 2021 ??09:32, Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) <wolfgang.viechtbauer at maastrichtuniversity.nl> a ?crit?: Dear Corentin, I cannot answer your question directly, that is, to what extent those results are comparable to each other, although if svyglm() gives 'marginal' (population averaged) coefficients in the sense of what a GEE model would do, then one could argue that those should not be combined with 'conditional' coefficients that glmer() provides (searching for combinations of terms like "GEE, marginal, population averaged, logistic mixed-effects, conditional, subject-specific" should turn up relevant discussions / papers). But leaving this aside, one could also just approach this issue entirely empirically, that is, simply code the type of analysis / type of coefficient for each study and examine in a moderator analysis whether there are systematic differences between the different types. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: R-sig-meta-analysis [mailto:r-sig-meta-analysis-bounces at r-project.org] On Behalf Of GOSLING Corentin Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2021 11:29 To: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear all I come back to you about the IPD meta-analysis we are conducting to explore the effect of month of birth on the persistence of ADHD. I had already asked for your help a few months ago when I was writing the protocol. We have since completed our systematic review and started to include data from different cohorts. As the month of birth is sensitive data, we do not ask the authors to send us the raw data: we have constructed an R-script that we send to the authors and which performs the analyses automatically and shares the anonymised results. We then carry out a classic two-stage meta-analysis based on summary results. We are facing a new challenge that we did not anticipate. Several studies involve complex survey design. Some studies have clusters (e.g., twin cohorts or assessments of several regular siblings per family), while others have even more complex sampling (and include for example sampling weights, stratum or finite population correction (fpc)). Some studies include both (clusters + stratum/weights/fpc). To analyse the data with clustering, naturally we thought of using mixed models via the glmer function of lme4 (our VD is binary: ADHD persistence yes/no). However, lme4 does not allow to handle - for the moment - sampling weights or stratifications. Therefore, for all data with clustering and/or weights and/or stratum and/or fpc, our idea was to use only the svyglm function of the survey package in order to have a coherent group of analyses (we know that the glmer and svyglm functions do not use the same coefficients (marginals vs. conditionals)). Our question is the following: can we group within the same meta-analysis coefficients that come from standard logistic regressions and coefficients that come from generalised mixed models fitted using glmer or generalised linear models adapted to complex designs fitted using svyglm? To support our question, we performed some tests on a dataset including clusters and sampling weights. Here are the results : [...] As you can see, the results are almost the same from the models, except when we take into account sampling weights. I hope that our problem is clearly exposed Thank you very much in advance for your help! Corentin J Gosling
Dear Prof Viechtbauer, Thank you so much for your very clear answer. We really like this solution. As soon as we have completed the meta-analysis, I will keep you updated on the results. Again, thank you so much for your insights Corentin Gosling Le ven. 5 mars 2021 ? 12:07, Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) < wolfgang.viechtbauer at maastrichtuniversity.nl> a ?crit :
Hi Corentin, I did not mean to suggest that one should run several different analyses on a single dataset. That would indeed place too much of a burden on the authors of the individual studies. My suggestion is really about this part:
Our question was whether - within the same meta-analysis - we could "safely" include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression
(when
data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the svyglm
function
(when the data have a complex structure).
I cannot tell you if is safe or not. But what you can always do is combine these different types in a single analysis and then check if there are systematic differences between these two types of effect sizes. If there are no systematic differences, then this is (empirical) evidence that combining them is in some sense an acceptable thing to do. This approach is similar to checking if effect sizes extracted from published articles are systematically different from those extracted from unpublished sources in a meta-analysis. If there are systematic differences, we need to think about what the reason for the difference may be. If not, then this is one less thing to worry about. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: GOSLING Corentin [mailto:corentin.gosling at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, 05 March, 2021 10:33 To: Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) Cc: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: Re: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear Prof Viechtbauer, Thank you very much for your reply! Sorry, my question was a bit misleading. In line with your suggestion,
our aim is
to avoid merging ?marginal ?coefficients and ?conditional? coefficients
by using
only the svyglm function as soon as the data has a complex structure
(clustering
and/or weighting, etc...). You are entirely right, in situations with clustering only, we could
compare 3
approaches : (i) select only 1 individual per cluster and use glm
function, or
keep clustering and use (ii) glmer function or (iii) svyglm function.
However,
we are a bit reluctant to make these comparisons for two reasons.
First, as soon
as data have a more complex structure (e.g. sampling weights), the only
approach
allowing to take this into account is the svyglm function. This makes
comparisons
a bit strange, as in our examples, since one analysis is taking account
of some
specificity of the design while the others are not. Second, from a
practical point
of view, the burden on authors will become even more complicated as the
time
required for analysis is already sometimes quite long (in particular
because of
several multiple imputation models). We are concerned that the
multiplication of
tests may sometimes make the analysis time so long that it may discourage
some
authors from participating. Our question was whether - within the same meta-analysis - we could "safely" include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic regression
(when
data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the svyglm
function
(when the data have a complex structure). By safely, I mean without
having to
compare the results of the svyglm function to other functions (such as
glm or
glmer) when data have a complex structure. If this is not possible, a more anecdotal question was whether it is
possible to
"safely" include effect sizes estimated by a standard logistic
regression (when
data have a regular structure) + effect sizes estimated by the glmer
function
(when data have clustering). Thank you so much for your help! Best wishes Corentin Gosling Le ven. 5 mars 2021 ? 09:32, Viechtbauer, Wolfgang (SP) <wolfgang.viechtbauer at maastrichtuniversity.nl> a ?crit : Dear Corentin, I cannot answer your question directly, that is, to what extent those
results are
comparable to each other, although if svyglm() gives 'marginal'
(population
averaged) coefficients in the sense of what a GEE model would do, then
one could
argue that those should not be combined with 'conditional' coefficients
that
glmer() provides (searching for combinations of terms like "GEE, marginal, population averaged, logistic mixed-effects, conditional,
subject-specific" should
turn up relevant discussions / papers). But leaving this aside, one could also just approach this issue entirely empirically, that is, simply code the type of analysis / type of
coefficient for
each study and examine in a moderator analysis whether there are
systematic
differences between the different types. Best, Wolfgang
-----Original Message----- From: R-sig-meta-analysis [mailto:
r-sig-meta-analysis-bounces at r-project.org] On
Behalf Of GOSLING Corentin Sent: Thursday, 04 March, 2021 11:29 To: r-sig-meta-analysis at r-project.org Subject: [R-meta] IPD meta analysis / complex survey design Dear all I come back to you about the IPD meta-analysis we are conducting to
explore
the effect of month of birth on the persistence of ADHD. I had already asked for your help a few months ago when I was writing the protocol. We have since completed our systematic review and started to include data
from
different cohorts. As the month of birth is sensitive data, we do not ask the authors to send us the raw data: we have constructed an R-script that we send to the authors and which performs the analyses automatically and shares the anonymised results. We then carry out a classic two-stage meta-analysis based on summary results. We are facing a new challenge that we did not anticipate. Several studies involve complex survey design. Some studies have clusters (e.g., twin cohorts or assessments of several regular siblings per family), while others have even more complex sampling (and include for example sampling weights, stratum or finite population correction (fpc)). Some studies include both (clusters + stratum/weights/fpc). To analyse the data with clustering, naturally we thought of using mixed models via the glmer function of lme4 (our VD is binary: ADHD persistence yes/no). However, lme4 does not allow to handle - for the moment -
sampling
weights or stratifications. Therefore, for all data with clustering
and/or
weights and/or stratum and/or fpc, our idea was to use only the svyglm function of the survey package in order to have a coherent group of analyses (we know that the glmer and svyglm functions do not use the same coefficients (marginals vs. conditionals)). Our question is the following: can we group within the same meta-analysis coefficients that come from standard logistic regressions and
coefficients
that come from generalised mixed models fitted using glmer or generalised linear models adapted to complex designs fitted using svyglm? To support our question, we performed some tests on a dataset including clusters and sampling weights. Here are the results : [...] As you can see, the results are almost the same from the models, except when we take into account sampling weights. I hope that our problem is clearly exposed Thank you very much in advance for your help! Corentin J Gosling