Split-plot Design
I like this - a good robust defence! Let the debate go on. Designs that are in some sense balanced are, as far as I can judge, still the staple of agricultural trials. The sorts of issues that arise in time series modeling must also be increasingly important. The thinking behind those designs is important, and ought to penetrate more widely. That general style of design is not however limited to agricultural experimentation. It is used widely, with different wrinkles, in psychology in industrial experimentation, in medicine, in laboratory experimentation, and with internet-based experimentation a new major area of application. It ought to be used much more widely outside of agriculture. Agriculture has been somewhat unique in having professional statisticians working alongside agricultural scientists for many decades now. The wrinkles can be important. Fisher famously commented on the frequent need to ask Nature more than one question at a time: "No aphorism is more frequently repeated in connection with field trials, than that we must ask Nature few questions, or, ideally, one question, at a time. The writer is convinced that this view is wholly mistaken. Nature, he suggests, will best respond to a logical and carefully thought out questionnaire" For each fixed effect and interaction, it is however necessary to be clear what is the relevant error term. Some time ago, someone posted a question about the analysis of a psychology experiment where the number of possible error terms was very large, where some pooling was desirable, and where it was not at all clear what terms in the anova table to pool, and where d.f, were so small that the mean squares did not provide much clue. (I looked for the email exchange, but could not immediately find it.) That is not a good design. There may be much more potential for this sort of difficultly in psychology as compared to agriculture. In agriculture the sites/blocks/plots/ subplots hierarchy is the order of the day, albeit often crossed with seasons to ensure that the analysis is not totally obvious. The data sets are often larger than formerly. (But not always, again note some psychology experiments. Or they may not be large in the sense of allowing many degrees of freedom for error) Large datasets readily arise when, as for the internet-based experimentation, randomization can be done and data collected automatically. (Some advertisers are randomizing their pop-up ads, to see which gives the best response.) With largish degrees of freedom for error, it is no longer necessary to worry about exact balance. I consider Doug that you are too tough on the textbooks. Maybe they ought to be branching out from agricultural experimentation more than they do; that is as much as I'd want to say. There are any number of examples from psychology, some of them very interesting, in the psychology books on experimental design. (Data from published papers ought nowadays as a matter of course go into web-based archives - aside from other considerations this would provide useful teaching resources. In some areas, this is already happening.) Degrees of freedom make sense in crossed designs also; it is the F- statistics for SEs for fixed effects that can be problematic. It may happen that one or two sources of error (maybe treatments by years) will dominate to such an extent that other sources can pretty much be ignored. The conceptual simplification is worth having; its utility may not be evident from a general multi-level modeling perspective. Maybe one does not want statisticians to be too dyed in the wool agricultural. Still, a bit of that thinking goes a long way, not least among social scientists. The arguments in Rosenbaum's "Observational Data" are much easier to follow if one comes to them with some knowledge and practical experience of old-fashioned experimental design. That seems to me a good indication of the quite fundamental role of those ideas, even if one will never do a randomized experiment. I'd have every novice statistician do apprenticeship's that include experience in horticultural science (they do not have a long tradition of working alongside professional statisticians), medicine and epidemiology, business statistics, and somewhere between health social science and psychology. It is unfortunate that I did not myself have this broad training, which may go some way to explaining why I am not in complete agreement with Doug's sentiments!! This is not to defend, in any large variety of places and circumstances, inference that relies on degrees of freedom. Not that my point relate directly to degrees of freedom. On degrees of freedom, I judge them to have a somewhat wider usefulness than Doug will allow. It would be nice if lmer() were to provide Kenward & Rogers style degrees of freedom ( as the commercial ASReml-R software does), but Doug is right to press the dangers of giving information that can for very unbalanced designs be misleading. Given a choice between mcmcsamp() and degrees of freedom, maybe I would choose mcmcsamp(). There's enlightening discussion of the opportunities that internet- based business offers for automated data collection and for experimentation on website visitors, in Ian Ayres "SuperCrunchers. Why thinking by numbers is the new way to be smart" (Bantam). Fortunately, the hype of the title pretty much goes once on gets into the text. John Maindonald email: john.maindonald at anu.edu.au phone : +61 2 (6125)3473 fax : +61 2(6125)5549 Centre for Mathematics & Its Applications, Room 1194, John Dedman Mathematical Sciences Building (Building 27) Australian National University, Canberra ACT 0200.
On 22 Mar 2008, at 1:31 AM, Douglas Bates wrote:
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 7:04 PM, John Maindonald <john.maindonald at anu.edu.au> wrote:
I do not think it quite true that the aov model that has an Error() term is a fixed effects model. The use of the word "stratum" implies that a mixed effects model is lurking somewhere. The F-tests surely assume such a model.
Some little time ago, Doug Bates invested me, along with Peter Dalgaard, a member of the degrees of freedom police. Problem is, I am unsure of the responsibilities, but maybe they include commenting on a case such as this.
Indeed, I should have been more explicit regarding the duties of a member of the degrees of freedom police when I appointed you :-) They are exactly what you are doing - to weigh in on discussions of degrees of freedom. Perhaps I can expand a bit on why I think that the degrees of freedom issue is not a good basis for approaching mixed models in general. Duncan Temple Lang used to have a quote about "Language shapes the way we think." in his email signature and I think similar ideas apply to how we think about models. Certainly the concept of error strata and the associated degrees of freedom are one way of thinking about mixed-effects models and they are effective in the case of completely balanced designs. If one has a completely balanced design and the number of units at various strata is small then decomposition of the variability into error strata is possible and the calculation of degrees of freedom is important (because the degrees of freedom are small - exact values of degrees of freedom are unimportant when they are large). Such data occur frequently - in text books. In fact, they are the only type of data that occur in most text books and hence they have shaped the way we think about the models. Generations of statisticians have looked at techniques for small, balanced data sets and decided that these define "the" approach to the model. So when confronted with large observational (and, hence, unbalanced or "messy") data sets they approach the modeling with this mind set. Certainly such data did occur in some agricultural trials (I'm not sure if this is the state of the art in current agricultural trials) and this form of analysis was important but it depends strongly on balanced data and balance is a very fragile characteristic in most data. The one exception is data in text books - most often data for examples in older texts were added as an afterthought and, for space reasons and to illustrate the calculations, were small data sets which just happened to be completely balanced so that all the calculations worked out. Fortunately this is no longer the case in books like your book with Braun where the data sets are real data and available separately from the book in R packages but it will take many years to flush the way of thinking about models induced by those small, balanced data sets from statistical "knowledge". (There is an enormous amount of inertia built into the system. Most introductory statistics textbooks published today, and probably those published for the next couple of decades, will include "statistical tables" as appendices because, as everyone knows, all of the statistical analysis we do in practice involves doing a few calculations on a hand calculator and looking up tabulated values of distributions.) Getting back to the "language shapes the way we think" issue, I would compare it to strategy versus tactics. I spent a sabbatical in Australia visiting Bill Venables. I needed to adjust to driving on the left hand side of the road and was able to do that after a short initial period of confusion and discomfort. If I think of places in Adelaide now it is natural for me to think of myself sitting on the right hand side of the front seat and driving on the left hand side of the road. That's tactics. However, even after living in Adelaide for several months I remember leaving the parking lot of a shopping mall and choosing an indirect route out the back instead of the direct route ahead because the direct route would involve a left hand turn onto a busy road. Instead I chose to make two right hand turns to get to an intersection with traffic lights where I could make the left turn. At the level of strategy I still "knew" that left hand turns are difficult and right hand turns are easy - exactly the wrong approach in Australia. This semester I am attending a seminar on hierarchical linear models organized in our social sciences school by a statistician whose background is in agricultural statistics. I make myself unpopular because I keep challenging the ideas of the social scientists and of the organizer. The typical kinds of studies we discuss are longitudinal studies where the "observational units" (i.e. people) are grouped within some social contexts. These are usually large, highly unbalanced data sets. Because they are longitudinal they inevitably involve some migration of people from one group to another. The migration means that random effects for person and for the various types of groups are not nested. The models are not hierarchical or at least they should not be. Trying to jam the analysis of such data into the hierarchical/multilevel framework of software like HLM or MLwin doesn't work well but that certainly won't stop people from trying. The hierarchical language in which they learned the model affects their strategy. The agricultural statistician, by contrast, doesn't worry about the nesting etc., For him the sole issue of important is to determine the number of degrees of freedom associated with the various error strata. These studies involve tens of thousands of subjects and are nowhere close to being balanced but his strategy is still based on having a certain number of blocks and plots within the blocks and subplots within the plots and everything is exactly balanced. So I am not opposed to approaches based on error strata and computing degrees of freedom where appropriate and where important. But try not to let the particular case of completely balanced small data sets determine the strategy of the approach to all models involving random effects. It's fragile and does not generalize well, just as assuming a strict hierarchy of factors associated with random effects is fragile. Balance is the special case. Nesting is the special case. It is a bad idea to base strategy on what happens in very special cases. they are always balanced and small data sets Another very fragile
lme() makes a stab at an appropriate choice of degrees of freedom, but does not always get it right, to the extent that there is a right answer. [lmer() has for the time being given up on giving degrees of freedom and p-values for fixed effects estimates.] This part of the output from lme() should, accordingly, be used with discretion. In case of doubt, check against a likelihood ratio test. In a simple enough experimental design, users who understand how to calculate degrees of freedom will reason them out for themselves. John Maindonald. John Maindonald email: john.maindonald at anu.edu.au phone : +61 2 (6125)3473 fax : +61 2(6125)5549 Centre for Mathematics & Its Applications, Room 1194, John Dedman Mathematical Sciences Building (Building 27) Australian National University, Canberra ACT 0200. On 21 Mar 2008, at 9:23 AM, Kevin Wright wrote:
Your question is not very clear, but if you are trying to match the
results in Kuehl, you need a fixed-effects model:
dat <- read.table("expl14-1.txt", header=TRUE)
dat$block <- factor(dat$block)
dat$nitro <- factor(dat$nitro)
dat$thatch <- factor(dat$thatch)
colnames(dat) <- c("block","nitro","thatch","chlor")
m1 <- aov(chlor~nitro*thatch+Error(block/nitro), data=dat)
summary(m1)
Mixed-effects models and degrees of freedom have been discussed many
times on this list....search the archives.
K Wright
On Thu, Mar 20, 2008 at 12:39 PM, <marcioestat at pop.com.br> wrote:
Hi listers,
I've been studying anova and at the book of Kuehl at the chapter
about split-plot there is a experiment with the results... I am
trying to
understand the experiments and make the code in order to obtain the
results... But there is something that I didn't understand yet...
I have a split-plot design (2 blocks) with two facteurs, one
facteur has 4 treatments and the other facteur is a measure
taken in three years...
I organize my data set as:
Nitro Bloc Year Measure
a
x
1 3.8
a
x
2 3.9
a x 3 2.0
a y 1 3.7
a y 2
2.4
a y 3
1.2
b x
1 4.0
b x
2 2.5
and so on...
So, I am trying this code, because I want to test each factor and
the
interaction...
lme=lme(measure ~ bloc + nitro + bloc*nitro, random= ~ 1|year,
data=lme)
summary(lme)
The results that I am obtaining are not correct, because
I calculated the degrees of fredom and they are not
correct... According to this design I will get two errors one for
the
whole plot and other for the subplot....
Well, as I told you, I am still learning... Any suggestions...
Thanks in advance,
Ribeiro
[[alternative HTML version deleted]]
_______________________________________________ R-sig-mixed-models at r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-mixed-models
_______________________________________________ R-sig-mixed-models at r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-mixed-models
_______________________________________________ R-sig-mixed-models at r-project.org mailing list https://stat.ethz.ch/mailman/listinfo/r-sig-mixed-models