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4 messages · Nicholas Lewin-Koh, Douglas Bates, Albyn Jones

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Wow!
Now I have to go back and reread Bates and Watts. Thank you  Doug, for
that very insightful
commentary. Would Bruce Lindsay's work on the geometry of mixtures be
applicable in
the mixed model setting? Maybe my understanding is a bit shaky (not the
first time nor the last)
but aren't the mixed effects, in the case of fixed effects comparisons,
nuisance parameters? 
So at least in the case of the likelihood ratio, provided that the
assumed family (link included) 
the likelihood ratio is in essence a sort of odds ratio between the two
models. Whether or not
a p-value is valid or even necessary is a different question, and comes
down to how well
the distribution can be approximated.

Nicholas
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On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 11:01 AM, Nicholas Lewin-Koh <nikko at hailmail.net> wrote:
I can't say because I am not familiar with that work.
It depends.  From the analytic point of view, yes they are.  From the
geometric point of view they are another set of coefficients in a
linear predictor so they use up dimensions.  However, their estimates
are not ordinary least squares estimates they are penalized least
squares estimates so they don't really correspond to full dimensions.
I haven't really thought of things in that way so I'm not sure what to
say about it.
A p-value is a useful metric, when we can calculate it reliably.
However, I don't think we should regard it as the sole purpose of
statistical inference.
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On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 01:52:26PM -0600, Douglas Bates wrote:

            
I don't have it handy, but as I recall, it deals with mixture
distributions, not the mixed model.

albyn
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Hi,
Yes, it does deal with mixture distributions, But in the sense I was
talking
about, random effects being nuisance parameters, one is in in effect
integrating them out
of the likelihood and hence it is a mixture, no? 
As I said, I am learning more than I am contributing to this discussion.

Nicholas
On Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:58:56 -0800, "Albyn Jones" <jones at reed.edu> said: